Friday, September 24, 2010

I suddenly feel an urge to spit

I don't think I've ever spit on the ground in my entire life. At least not out of the blue, without a good reason, like after eating something I shouldn't have, without going into any further details. I find excessive spitting absolutely repulsive and a sign of very bad manners. If you're mouth is overflowing, just swallow. OK?

I just want to make that statement from the beginning. I am NOT a spitter in real life, so don't get me wrong in this.

But regardless of this I can't really see what's so horrible about the emote "/spit" in WoW. On the contrary. The first time I met a horde character who spat at me, it surprised me and made me smile a little. Here was someone who actually cared about the character he played and what was going on in this character's life!

Apart from on the RP servers - and hardly there either - there aren't many players who care about roleplaying these days. Following the discussions in the open channels where all you here is GS, ACH and DPS, we could as well be blue and red cubes walking around. Just a geometric form with a bunch of connected stats. If someone spits at you instead of inspecting you, you could as well consider it a complement. After all: it's an effort to interact with you. They want to be a part of your gameplay and the forgotten conflict between alliance and horde.

I would go as far as to say that a little bit of spitting is good for the game. It keeps the spirit alive as long as it's done with good timing and in jest.

However - not everyone shares this opinion. An intense discussion about the /spit-emote has broken out on the EU official forum, in a thread where a player demands that this emote should be removed from the game:
"I personally find this more offensive than being sworn at. At work / school / college you get sworn at in some form or another on a regular basis. Sometimes its offensive sometimes its not.

When do you ever get spat on IRL. If you do its classed as assult and can lead to a criminal charge. In football / rugby you spit on someone you get banned for a minimum 3 weeks. Where as they can swear at an offical in the heat of battle. I personaly belive this emote should be removed from the game. I cant think of a replacement for it atm but im sure there are other options than to have this obscene gesture in place. "
Her request is mocked by quite a few, but there are others who support the anti-spit movement. It doesn't seem as if Blizzard is prepared to meet her request, but Vaneras wrote a blue reply and suggested her to install an addon that can help her to filter unwanted emotes. He's even linking to "Spitfilter reborne" that was designed a couple of years ago with the one and only purpose to filter out "/spit", which made my jaw drop.

There's an addon for everything, isn't there?

For my own part I get a little bit triggered by the spitting debate. I suddenly feel an urge to do it myself. I'm always so polite. In real life. In game. On my blog (at least I want to think so). But how much would it hurt if I for once tried out what it feels like to spit on the ground for no particular reason in a role playing game? Maybe it would even make me good?

Think about it: isn't spitting actually a more peaceful way to fight your opponents than to execute them with a spell or a strike?

One of the commenters in the thread suggested a macro that I maybe should try out in a battleground.

/spit
/mock
/rude

Press until opponent will flee.
I would name it "Larísa's Super Special PvP Macro". Oh yes... Fear the Spitting Gnome!

But hey... what's going on over there in the corner? You there! Stop! That's disgusting!

Now get yourself outside young man and do what you need, but no spitting on the floor in my inn!

Cheers all!

53 comments:

Perdissa said...

In my line of work, I see evidence all the time that some people will be offended by things that 99.999% of the population find to be perfectly fine. These people are often unable to be persuaded otherwise, and there is little we can do about it, except to ignore them.

To me, spitting in game is something fun that I do to the opposing faction, usually after I kill someone in PVP. My own habit is that I do this when they put up a good fight. (obviously if I'm the one kissing the dirt I won't be spitting much)

I remember early in the game when I got killed in PVP and the enemy spit on me, I really felt the anger flare in faction hate. Now, it's just feuding fun!

Erinys said...

Every rogue UI I've ever seen has had a /spit macro lurking in some corner of it. One of my guild mates actually has it macroed so he /spits and then cannibalises for added insult. Based on the number of forum threads/people making lv 1s to call him names, it seems to work.

Personally, it's probably my least favourite emote. Guaranteed to make me see red on the battlefield, but then I imagine that's why they are doing it in the first place. So, now I just chase them down and /dance on their corpse.

However, despite how mad it's been known to make me, I'd hate to see it removed from the game.

Carson 63000 said...

If you want your jaw to drop a little further - I remember back in the day seeing some guilds that actually had a "no spitting" rule as part of their guild charter. Get caught /spitting and you get the gkick. Now that's taking things seriously.

I loved the "In football / rugby you spit on someone you get banned for a minimum 3 weeks," though. How many weeks suspension do you get in football for ARCANITE REAPER HOOO!!!!! on your opponent?

Nikola Begedin said...

You refuse others the right to even THINK the thought that the fantasy genre might evolve over time. When did WoW become your personal game? Why is it OK to discuss volley shots, but not how you can spit on others in the world? Just because people are hinting that it might be nice to see some less spiting in the game - there are alot of anti-spiters playing these days mind you - it doesn't meant they are trying to transform the game into a paradise (or hell if you see it that way) of political corectness. Just like you, I play the game to escape reality. Maybe that's why I'd like to see less spiting there. Spitting. Because ih real life it's really not nice and extremely offensive.

Oh well, I suggest you try and see everyone's point of view every now and then.

_____________________


See what I did there?

Carina said...

Europa has quite a few different cultures and sub-cultures in some and getting spat on is a worse insult than all c-, b-, w- and f-words together.

People who've learned that being spat on is the ultimate insult against your very humanity, much, much worse than being called names - those people will react accordingly.

So why does a spit-filter then make your jaw drop? Blizzard does offer a cussword filter - and a spitfilter would be just exactly the same for insulting emotes.

WoW players DO come from different backgrounds. Culture differences are to be expected.

I don't think Blizzard should remove the spit emote, but I DO think an inbuild filter for it would be nice to have, just like the cussword filter. That would keep the peace of mind for everyone.

Frnit said...

The start of your post reminds me of when I first met /insult. I was wondering for a good while towards the end of 'Vanilla' how to do it.

The BG-macro though, reminds me of early WotLK pvp, when I played arenas with /train macroed to every single button. Had some hilarious comments regarding it before I decided to enable game sounds.

Jen said...

I agree with the poster. I wouldn't argue for the emote to be removed or filtered, but for me /spit is the most offensive emote in the game by far. I don't know if it's what Carina said, simply cultural differences, but spitting on someone is just... ughhh. I can't explain my reaction but I don't think I could ever see /spit as a joke, even from a guildie (and I'm very hard to offend).

I save it for Horde who gank me while I'm farming Eternal Fire in WG, because in my world ganking innocent people deserve spitting. I can only hope it annoys them as much as it annoys me...

Ossia said...

Imagine this everyday scenario:
Enemy healer + PvE hero partner riding along in your average BG. Sap the hero, brutally kill the healer, /wave /threat /pray with the sapped player targeted. Re-stealth, proceed with killing the remaining player, /spit .

Priceless !

Nikola Begedin said...

On a serious note, I have no problem with the emote. Yes, it is a cultural thing and it used to be a huge insult in my culture. These days, though, its more embarrassing for the person who does it then the person who "receives" it so that is the main reason it simply isn't done.

That's besides the point. If i find something particularly offensive, I let the people around me know that and ask them to stop doing it in my company. If they refuse, then I determine how offensive that thing really is to me and if i decide it's to much, I avoid the company of those people. I don't demand the world to change for everyone because of my personal preference, be it real or virtual.

Tam said...

Spitting is, err, a tricky one. As a healer I get regularly spat on PVP, usually by rogues as they stunlock and kill me. I think it's, um, part of the culture of PVP though - a way, strangely, to connect with another player, even if just to make them angry enough to fight you back. I mean PVP is most interesting to me when you do develop these consensually antagonistic relationships with other players - I remember playing hide and seek across an entire bg with a kitteh druid - until I lured him into a trap. He actually saluted me before he died, and I think we both respected each other, through, y'know, the hate and violence :D

Also there's an extent to which emotes become naturally divorced from their real life counterpoints. I lick people in WoW ALL the time damn, but oddly enough I'd never do that in real life. Equally it's not like we all go around regularly brushing up against each other and farting. I think seperated from physicality the emotes become sort of verbal shortcuts.

On the other hand, although I don't use or particularly like the spit emote ... and I understand why some people might find it disgusting ... I don't think I'd want to see it removed from the game.

In real life though ... you have to wonder, I mean what is wrong with you that the contents of your mouth produced by your body are *so personally repulsive to you* that you have eject them.

I was about to add as a final point that I'd probably rather be spat on than hit in the face but weirdly I'm not sure that's true. I think there's a level of humiliation in being spat on that makes it almost worse than a certain kind of violence. But maybe that's just me.

Sorry, much rambling!

Ardol said...

Maybe it's because of my extreme left-brained, extreme systematizing-type-ness, but I really can't see what the big deal is. In the end, it's just text, and though the intent behind it may be malicious, one of the basic laws of internet physics is that what a person says or does online is an exaggerated version of what they really think or feel, so for that reason, I don't take spitting seriously. It might also be because I play on a PvE server and never do battlegrounds, so the only time I'm ever spat upon is when the Horde can't do anything else to me--can't attack me, can't sap me, can't kill me, etc. Because of that, I see spitting as almost synonymous with petty insults; it's a sign that my opponent can't do anything significant against me, so they are resorting to something that can only be effective if I am insulted, and I'm not, so it doesn't work.

Larísa said...

@Perdissa:Actually it might be a good thing to be spat at in PvP:ing. It might make you fight a little harder than you otherwise would have. Fired up by faction pride.

@Erinys: Maybe getting a bit mad is one of the things the game offers us? Being really really pissed off can feel pretty well in certain situations. If your RL mood is the same. Just unlash your wrath!

@Carson 63000: Wow, that’s what I’d call an serious approach to this!

@Nikola Begedin: I see what you did there, trying to pull some kind of parallel between our previous heated gender discussions and the spitting issue. And I don’t agree that it’s the same thing at all, but I won’t answer to it, since I’m done discussing gender for a while now. If you want to keep doing that, please stick to your own blog and keep this comment thread on topic.

@Carina: I was just a little bit surprised that someone had bothered to come up with an addon for such a small detail. I don’t say that I think it’s bad, on the contrary, it’s a perfect solution to tend to minorities who find spitting too offensive to want to see it in WoW. It’s way better than removing the emote. I’m not trying to get to war on this topic. I tried to write it a little cheerful and lighthearted, a suitable Friday post. But maybe I just failed.

@Fruit: Oh. /train. You know what? If there is ANY emote I’d like to have removed from the game it’s that. I hate it so intensely that I could write qq:ing forum posts about it.

@Jen: You see! There is a good use for it! Don’t remove it. But use it wisely, when it’s needed.

@Ossia: Like some kind of emote torture procedure? Interesting!

@Tam: Exactly! I’m not a dedicated PvP:er, maybe I should try a bit more of spitting and insulting, making it personal and – bam! – the PvP would really be engaging. A fight on life and death!

I have yet to lick any player in game. Like with spitting I’m naturally inhibited about doing so; the very thought of it makes me embarrassed. What on Earth do I signal to someone I lick? What does it imply? I’m not sure of the social code of it, so I refrain not to communicate something I didn’t mean to.

@Ardol: Yes, that’s what I think too. Spitting really doesn’t have any edge, does it? It’s powerless. Especially on a PvE server. But somehow… it’s still a mark of some kind. I have met hordes spitting at me when they couldn’t fight me. And in a weird way I felt almost… flattered that they bothered to. Because what they in fact were doing was to offer me an instant of mini-RP.

Anonymous said...

Spitting-gnome-squashing may turn out a bit more entertaining than simple gmone-squashing.

Zekta said...

I actually got spat by one or two classmates when I was still in secondary school. The reason is nothing more than jealousy for school grades. Although I don't blame their childish, I remember the incident until now.

It's offensive in real life. But acceptable in the V R world where killing the other faction is permitted. But the idea is too what extend it's tolerated, and to what level this kind of request is valid?

Flash back on the homosexual incident happened in the past, we still not see much PR or transparency on how they resolve issues like this.
Azeorth had become the biggest VR world for good or bad, guess blizzard better spend more time on social aspect sooner or later

Shintar said...

I, too, find it very disgusting in real life, but I think Tam made a very important point that we view the emotes in game very differently from the real actions they present. To use a more positive example, I like to use /hug and /cheer a lot, much more often than I would actually do those things in real life. I think to a certain extent emotes simply become replacements for facial gestures and other non-verbal cues to express emotion, so "hug" might just be the equivalent of a smile and "spit" is like giving someone an angry glare.

So yeah, I don't actually view using the /spit emote as terribly offensive, it's just a way of communicating while playing the game. The real problem are people who are constantly rude to players of their own faction and completely out of character. >.<

Nikola Begedin said...

Person A has an opinion on something, person B disagrees with it. Person A tries to change Person B's and everyone else's environment to fit his opinion on something and Person B responds to it.

That's the parallel, clean and simple. I'm not making it up, it's just there. What you intend to do with it is your choice. Are there instances where this doesn't matter? If that is the case, where do you draw the line?

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the objectivity here. As i said already, I don't support changing the game for these type of reasons no matter what, and yes, these are the same type of reasons. One might be more widespread than the other, but they are still the same type. How do you know how offensive spitting is to the person who made the forum post? Maybe, due to his culture or any other reason, it affects him more than everything else combined? Point is, you either address all these "issues" or to none of them. Otherwise you are just picking them based on your personal opinion, which is in no way OK.

I vote NO on addressing any of them in a game as there are other ways, much better ways to address them in real life.

Anonymous said...

oh noes... and here we go... last time it was a statue with no women in it now spitting... pls... just shut down the forum... why the fork cant you all just play the game and suck it all up... all this bullshüt.

Askevar said...

I've actually not spat at someone... but a rude gesture caused QQ of epic proportions once.

Our Old GM ragequit the guild and was sitting and chatting in whispers with the new GM [a friend of mine] who I happened to be on vent with at the time. For a while we were laughing at his stupid QQ. He then apparently went on a tirade about how evil and horrible my husband was, and I passed him in Dalaran at the time and did a rude gesture.

The fact that I did that caused him to take his problem to public channels and he was demanding I be kicked from the guild etc. I felt not bad... but stupid, like my IQ dropped. I mean a rude gesture expresses displeasure and such. I've been rude gestured and spat at by so many horde I pay it no mind.

My new GM said "If it had been me, I'd have spit on him... you were easy on him".

Larísa said...

@Nikola: Oh, I've never ever claimed to be objective! This is my personal blog where I write about my personal views.

I even say it on my "about page" on the front page.

In fact I'm super biased! I really am! That's a difference between blogging and journalism. (or at least it should be, cough, looking at the gaming media)

Anonymous said...

People who use the little "taunting" macros in pvp.... I like to only focus on them for the remainder of the game :)

Saga said...

The /spit emote in itself doesn't bother me really, but I admittedly find it a bit annoying when someone is spamming it at me. Once or maybe even twice is fine, but spamming of any command is really just annoying.

In my mind it's the 12 year olds that spam though, but that's probably not entirely true. In any case, when people start spamming me I usually just do a /yawn and leave.

In PvP I don't do the /spit or /rude.. I prefer killing someone and then blowing them a kiss. You know, just because. To me that is more taunting than actually taunting.

Klepsacovic said...

The spit emote offends me greatly. It should stay in, because it is useful.

SpiritusRex said...

I'm with Klepsacovic on this one. As an emote it does exactly what it is supposed to do - causes a reaction. To anybody who gets up in arms about it, I sincerely appreciate your concern, but would suggest that we all remember that it is just a game - pixels vs. pixels - and that nobody is actually spitting in your face. Further, the last time I checked there was a lot of blood, plagues and poisons all over Azeroth - some of which could even cause you to become a zombie - so you can't be too sure and might want to spit every now and again. Lastly, since there's no toothbrush in game and its only once a year when I can use a tooth-pick to show off my sparkling smile (Hallows End), some pretty foul stuff can accumulate in one's mouth - I mean, ever had bad clams followed by some dwarven stout? Seriously. Don't want that combo to linger in your mouth too long.

Speaking of which, since it's now Friday in my part of the world, I lift my pint of Night Elf Nectar in salute to you all and wish you all the best of weekends! /salute
Now, where'd those clams go....

Carrie said...

But.. but... if they took out /spit, what would I do to the Raven Lord (just about) every day when he doesn't give me a pretty little copy of himself to ride upon???

Nikola Begedin said...

It's not so much about being objective here as it is about being fair. Based on past events and your reaction to this specific forum post, i really don't think you are being fair here.

Now, there is no one forcing to be fair, but if you aren't, then you also cant expect anyone to take you or your demands seriously. I'm speaking mostly in general here, not directly to you, so I hope you don't take it personal. The person that made the forum post, for instance, is not being fair either. Some other bloggers I've been following lately also.

Larísa said...

Nicola, I'm really trying to be humble and see the parallel but I fail. I never said that the spit-hater should shut up, did I? Even if I don't support her I don't tell her to get the hell out of "my game", which includes spitting, do I? There's a huge difference. You're trying to make up something that just isn't there.

I'm really sorry to see this thread derailing into this. All I wanted to do was a nice (as long as the spitting topic can be considered "nice" ;), harmless, lighthearted post suitable for a Friday night read. I'm not trying to start a war here. If you feel like doing that, please go to our neighbour bar instead. I've heard they've got some pretty good fights going on over there.

Kurt said...

"Person A has an opinion on something, person B disagrees with it. Person A tries to change Person B's and everyone else's environment to fit his opinion on something and Person B responds to it.

That's the parallel, clean and simple. I'm not making it up, it's just there. What you intend to do with it is your choice."

The ONLY part of this parallel that is an action taken by Larisa, and therefore under her control, is "Person B responds to it."

Nikola, It doesn't make a damn bit of difference HOW she responds in your clean and simple analysis, so you apparently disapprove of her even talking at all. Wait, I see the parallel, it's stupid males telling women to shut up because they feel threatened by them.

Larisa, I'm fine if you delete this comment as it's incredibly argumentative, but that's the way it is and now someone's said it. All this pretty talk about fairness and hypocrisy and equality, using the language of the feminists but with the message that women should be seen but not heard. I'm amazed you respond so calmly to it.

Dàchéng said...

I spit upon every Bloodsail Admiral I meet. Bloodsail scum!

Tesh said...

There should be a /moon emote (complete with temporary legging removal). It's all part of the silliness. Maybe an /elbowdrop one, too.

...and yeah, yay for addons to let players do their own censoring.

Poneria said...

Like Tam was saying, I /lick people all the time in WoW, but I've yet to do it in IRL. One of my guildies has a macro that says "X fondles you gently." (I'm sure it's a macro, because everyone thinks it's them being fondled, so it can't possibly say "you" because it's targeting a specific someone.) That usually starts a round of amorous and inappropriate emoting by the raid, but it's all in fun.

I like the /spit emote for when I want to express utter disgust at something in-game. I spat on Wrynn my first time through the Battle for the Undercity because I totally hated his attitude toward the Horde (I'm a carebear, I admit it). I was on my human warlock, no less.

So yeah, I can see how the /spit emote is super offensive, but I feel like, y'know, that's the POINT.

Nikola Begedin said...

I'm not trying to insult anyone here or anything of the sort. I'm also not trying to start an argument.

The parallel is there, clean and simple. One person doesn't like something in the game and wants the game to change for everyone, and the other person doesn't like that idea. That's all there is to it.

How someone responds to it is their own problem and i really don't see how the type of response is important to the parallel.

I never said it's not fine for Larisa to write this post. It is and i completely agree with her. I just observed the similarity of the situation and how she and some other people aren't really being fair here. Now, it's completely normal that people aren't fair about some stuff. I'm positive i have bias on allot of stuff to. The important thing is that you try your hardest to be fair and as far as i can tell, Larisa is.

Now, maybe my previous posts sounded a bit aggressive, my English isn't that good, so i can't be sure, but believe me, I'm not trying to attack anyone here.

Nikola Begedin said...

"Nicola, I'm really trying to be humble and see the parallel but I fail. I never said that the spit-hater should shut up, did I? Even if I don't support her I don't tell her to get the hell out of "my game", which includes spitting, do I? There's a huge difference. You're trying to make up something that just isn't there."

No, you didn't say he should leave, or shut up about it. You are just saying that the thing he dislikes should not be removed, and I agree with you. However, if you think about it, what are his options then? He can either leave or shut up or maybe decided that he can tolerate it after all.

Adam was saying pretty much the same thing, only he wasn't nice about it like you are. Wheather someone is nice or mean should not affect the validity of their argument. Again, I'm talking about the general reaction to his post, not to you directly.

"I'm really sorry to see this thread derailing into this. All I wanted to do was a nice (as long as the spitting topic can be considered "nice" ;), harmless, lighthearted post suitable for a Friday night read. I'm not trying to start a war here. If you feel like doing that, please go to our neighbour bar instead. I've heard they've got some pretty good fights going on over there."

No war here either. As I said, I'm just pointing out how I see all this.Please don't take it personally. If you don't like my posts, also feel free to delete them. The content of your blog is your choice and there will be no hard feelings.

______________________________________
"Nikola, It doesn't make a damn bit of difference HOW she responds in your clean and simple analysis, so you apparently disapprove of her even talking at all. Wait, I see the parallel, it's stupid males telling women to shut up because they feel threatened by them.

Larisa, I'm fine if you delete this comment as it's incredibly argumentative, but that's the way it is and now someone's said it. All this pretty talk about fairness and hypocrisy and equality, using the language of the feminists but with the message that women should be seen but not heard. I'm amazed you respond so calmly to it."

See, the old stuff is repeating here again. Yes, the tone of the response should not make a difference as long as the argument is valid from an objective standpoint. That is how a debate works. I am not disapproving anything Larisa said, I am simply trying to make a point that, if you wont your position to be valid, you need to be consistent.

In my humble opinion, people aren't being consistent here. That's completely fine, by the way, I don't think any less of anyone's character because of it. I'm simply stating my opinion on how people should approach these things.

Now as for your second paragraph, I really don't see how you managed to get that message out of what i wrote. If my replies do sound that way, then I apologize and would like to emphasize that it was in no way my intention to sound that way.

My opinion is not, how you put it, "that women should be seen but not heard", it is that if anyone wants to be heard about any issue whatsoever, they should hear other's about their issues in the same way, no matter how trivial those issues seem, because it's practically impossible to draw lines here.

Nikola Begedin said...

"Nicola, I'm really trying to be humble and see the parallel but I fail. I never said that the spit-hater should shut up, did I? Even if I don't support her I don't tell her to get the hell out of "my game", which includes spitting, do I? There's a huge difference. You're trying to make up something that just isn't there."

I already described the parallel. Someone doesn't like something in the game and wants the game to change for everyone because of it. Someone else dislikes that idea and responds. That's all there is to it. There is no hidden meaning, it's as plain as it gets.

Now i would like to emphasize that i completely agree with you on this matter. What I'm trying to point out is that Adam was basically doing the same thing you are doing now, only in a less nicer way. The whole point is, how nice you are should not, and in a fair debate, does not affect the validity of the original point, and in these cases, it obviously did. No, you did not say he should shut up or get out of your game, you just said that the game shouldn't be changed the way he wants, and, again, i completely, wholeheartedly agree with you. However, if you really think about it, what are his options then? When it comes to it, all he can do is shut up, leave, or simply decided that he can tolerate the issue after all.

"I'm really sorry to see this thread derailing into this. All I wanted to do was a nice (as long as the spitting topic can be considered "nice" ;), harmless, lighthearted post suitable for a Friday night read. I'm not trying to start a war here. If you feel like doing that, please go to our neighbour bar instead. I've heard they've got some pretty good fights going on over there."

I'm not trying to to start any sort of war or derail the thread in any way, I am simply describing my observation. If you dislike what I'm writing, feel free to delete my posts, there will be no hard feelings on my side, as the content of your blog is your decision in the end.

Nikola Begedin said...

"The ONLY part of this parallel that is an action taken by Larisa, and therefore under her control, is "Person B responds to it." "

But it doesn't make it any less of a parallel, does it. She does not approve of the game changing to accommodate someone she disagrees with, and that's fine in my book.

"Nikola, It doesn't make a damn bit of difference HOW she responds in your clean and simple analysis, so you apparently disapprove of her even talking at all. Wait, I see the parallel, it's stupid males telling women to shut up because they feel threatened by them. "

Well, as I said before, In a normal debate, the validity of the argument should not and is not affected by the niceness of the person making it. I never said i disapprove of talking, I said that allot of people here lack consistency. This is completely normal for your average human being - everyone is biased about something, including you and me. So yeah, the tone of a persons response does not make a difference, the response itself does.

"Larisa, I'm fine if you delete this comment as it's incredibly argumentative, but that's the way it is and now someone's said it. All this pretty talk about fairness and hypocrisy and equality, using the language of the feminists but with the message that women should be seen but not heard. I'm amazed you respond so calmly to it."

Well, I have to say that this is not how it is on my side. I never said, how you put it "that women should be seen but not heard" and i would never, ever say that, ever. I said that if you want to be heard on the issues you are trying to fix, you need to hear other people's issues in the same way, regardless of how trivial they seem. That's what I mean by fairness, and it seems to me that allot of people weren't fair here or "there".

Kurt said...

"The parallel is there, clean and simple. One person doesn't like something in the game and wants the game to change for everyone, and the other person doesn't like that idea. That's all there is to it."

That's not all there is to it. Things don't exist in a vacuum. If we were able to magically wave our hands and remove any complexity that we didn't want to deal with, then I could respond to you and say:

"The parallel is there, clean and simple. One person doesn't like something. That's all there is to it."

Then I'd say that all the other crap in your parallel that you tacked onto the end doesn't matter, the parallel I'm talking about still exists and somehow magically that makes it important. Or I could say:

"The parallel is there, clean and simple. One person has an opinion about something. That's all there is to it."

Life doesn't work like that. You can't just dismiss the added complexity that Larisa and I have alluded to by saying you're not talking about that, you're drawing a simpler parallel. There's ALWAYS a simpler parallel, and unless you have some reasoned argument as to why your level of abstraction is better, you're not worth listening to. I'm only responding to you because you're being so insulting to women, but your argument is senseless.

"Now i would like to emphasize that i completely agree with you on this matter. What I'm trying to point out is that Adam was basically doing the same thing you are doing now, only in a less nicer way."

So yes, Adam is BASICALLY doing the same thing as she is, they are both bloggers expressing opinions. Their opinions are different, and they are different, which is the entire point of reading both of them and not just one. The "hidden meanings" that you are so proud of throwing out like lukewarm bathwater in fact contained the baby, likewise defenestrated by you in blithe ignorance.

Nikola Begedin said...

Some of my blog posts are not being displayed for some reason, probably because of their length. The next two posts I will make were written before Kurt's last post so i apologize if some of the things do not make sense. Please refrain from replying until i post both of them.

Nikola Begedin said...

"The ONLY part of this parallel that is an action taken by Larisa, and therefore under her control, is "Person B responds to it." "

But it doesn't make it any less of a parallel, does it. She does not approve of the game changing to accommodate someone she disagrees with, and that's fine in my book.

"Nikola, It doesn't make a damn bit of difference HOW she responds in your clean and simple analysis, so you apparently disapprove of her even talking at all. Wait, I see the parallel, it's stupid males telling women to shut up because they feel threatened by them. "

Well, as I said before, In a normal debate, the validity of the argument should not and is not affected by the niceness of the person making it. I never said i disapprove of talking, I said that allot of people here lack consistency. This is completely normal for your average human being - everyone is biased about something, including you and me. So yeah, the tone of a persons response does not make a difference, the response itself does.

Nikola Begedin said...

"Larisa, I'm fine if you delete this comment as it's incredibly argumentative, but that's the way it is and now someone's said it. All this pretty talk about fairness and hypocrisy and equality, using the language of the feminists but with the message that women should be seen but not heard. I'm amazed you respond so calmly to it."

Well, I have to say that this is not how it is on my side. I never said, how you put it "that women should be seen but not heard" and i would never, ever say that, ever. I said that if you want to be heard on the issues you are trying to fix, you need to hear other people's issues in the same way, regardless of how trivial they seem. That's what I mean by fairness, and it seems to me that allot of people weren't fair here or "there".

Now, i have to say again, please, please don't take this as an insult to anyone as it was not my intention. If any of the things i said seem insulting, feel free to point them out and i will try to elaborate or even retract them if I'm convinced that they are, in fact, insulting.

Nikola Begedin said...

Kurt, I'm sorry, but you are taking my points to far. I understand that you are doing that intentionally to try and make your point, but I don't seem to get it, so here goes...

Could you please explain to me how exactly things are different here? Why, aside from the politeness/niceness is this situation different from the one Adam was in? Please go in detail to avoid any miscommunication.

I also need to emphasize that i agreed both with Adam's and Larisa's post, so when i say that it's the situation is similar, I mean that as a good thing and not as an insult. If this is why people are taking it negatively, please try to keep that in mind.

Larísa said...

Nikola. I won't delete anything. I'm a little sorry for the other guests. I just want to let you know that arguments like this, pelople like you, is one of the reasons why I recently have started to reconsider if I'm really going to keep blogging. Seriously. It doesn't make me energized or enthusiastic. It's not fun or stimulating. If you don't like my place please get out of here. That's all. Thanks.

Nikola Begedin said...

Larisa, I'm sorry if you feel that way. I do like this place and if you don't mind, I will continue reading, but if it bothers you, i will refrain from replying any further.

Again, I was trying to be nice and polite as much as possible and if people see it differently, I apologize for that.

Larísa said...

Np Nikola. Grab a pint and just relax for a while.
things go out of hands sometimes.
/hug

Michael said...

The interesting thing to me is that the /spit emote is equivalent to using the arbitrary emote "/e spits on %t". We can all always just write any emote, limited by our own imagination. In this, /spit is much like /lick or /hug and unlike /dance or /kiss, which actually have dramatic character animations to go along with them. Larisa, I think you'd probably be just as happy to see any of those emotes too.

If Blizzard removed /spit as a command, people could still emote spits on each other. It's not a matter of limiting the ability to be offensive in the game. It just wouldn't be an officially sanctioned and suggested action. For me at least, that's what this comes down to: what actions does Blizzard want to encourage v.s. merely allow.

For me at least, suggesting that people /spit does nothing to make the game more enjoyable. I would not miss it if that emote fell off the list.

Ratshag said...

Pardon me, whiles I wipe a minute and barely noticeables quantification of gnomish saliva off me sabaton.

devotchka said...

I have not yet read the forums thread or this full thread of comments, but I did see and fully agree with Perdissa's first paragraph about the permanently-offended among us!

While I've never been riled up enough by any emote in game to want to insist that it be removed from game, /spit does annoy me like no other emote does. It's pretty much the only one that makes me want to do something to piss the /spitting player off on purpose. Generally I'm a pretty peaceful person, in game and out. I'm a carebear in-game; and if another player of either faction does something that angers me, I'll usually respond with an /angry or a /rude or something similar, but never a /spit, because I so dislike it done to me.

I had no idea that there is a mod to filter out /spit, but it sounds like a great idea and a perfect solution for those who don't like that emote!

Your (Larisa) point of view about /spit made me look at it in a whole new way, and maybe next time it inevitably happens I'll be able to think of it in that light and not be quite as annoyed. Thanks!

I do not want any emotes removed, personally; rather, I'd like more! I love having a variety of emotes to communicate with the opposite faction (and my own) with.

Lutz said...

there is a /moon. no animation though :(

Nils said...

Do I enjoy the /spit emote ?
If other players /spit at my? No.
When I do it my self? I don't.

So, I could say that the /spit emote does not increase my fun at playing WoW. But that is wrong.

In fact, there are a lot of things that are not inherent fun. Having no teleport to the raids, having limited bag space, having limited health, doing limited damage, not being able to /spit 10000x times in a row if you want...

Once again the Fun Fallacy.

Dàchéng said...

By the way, guys; if you consider spitting at people rude, what do you think about ramming a sword into their innards?

Larísa said...

@Zekta: I definitely agree on that the social aspects are important and that they definitely could do more to keep the community healthy - not the least by having more GM surveillance on the servers.
However it's a little tricky where to draw the line of what's offensive. If you start being generous in forbidding stuff, it can get into a spin you wouldn't want. I think the way to go is to let players take the control. The maturity filter is a good example. Not forbidding anyone to curse, but providing means for people to protect themselves if they want to.

@Shintar: oh me too! I hug a lot in game, while in real life I find the present hug-everyone-you-see culture intimidating and strange.

@Askevar: Wow. That's a bit out of proportions, really.

@Saga: Spamming is always annoying. And yes, taunting with a kiss is actually more elegant!

@Klepsacovic: indeed. It's interesting how we're suddenly to avoid all the unpleasant feelings. It can actually be nice to be angry once in a while.

@Spritus Rex: Thank you for the toast! I forgot about claiming it's a Friday night toast, but it really was!

And yes, if you pick at spitting there's really quite a lot of disgusting things going on ingame.

@Carrie: He deserves it! Spit on!

@Tesh: I think there is a moon one, although without the graphics. It's not anything I'd use personally. But yes, the addon solutions is great.

@Poneira: Interesting to hear about all this spitting on NPCs! I've never thought about that, but there certainly are a few around who deserve a shower.

@Michael: That's true. But doing manual emotes takes more effort. They're the most fun one though, sometimes they're very creative!

@Ratshag: Pfft! Barely noticeable? This gnome has a big mouth, haven't you noticed?

@Devotchka: Thanks! I'm glad if I could help you see it in a new way. Nothing is black and white in life. There's always another side to it if you think.

Lutz: I'm actually grateful about that I think. At least it's not high on my priority list...

@Nils: Thanks for the link to that post, which I hadn't read before. It was very thoughtful.

@Dàchéng: You might think that's a tad worse, yes.

Leah said...

spitting is..interesting. in real life there actually are occasions for me to use that motion. I spit the chewed up gum into a trash container or my hand (to take it to trash container) I spit out the fruit seeds (oranges, cherries, pomegranate) or seed shells (sunflower seeds etc). there's one contingency when I just spit - and yes at that point what's in my mouth is too disgusting to swallow (I don't do it in public though). And then of course there are dental office visits.

But I suppose that's not the kind of spiting you're talking about.

In game, because there's no physical component of saliva involved, its much easier to spit or tolerate being spat on. At least for me. personally I don't spit on people in game unless they really pissed me off in some way.

that said - I have ignore button. we all do. if something someone does bothers you so much you cannot tolerate it? ignore them. if emote bothers you, then by all means - ignore that emote. Removing it from the game though? I'm not so sure about that.

it really does add to the range of emotion you can display with your characters. sort of extreme disdain/disrespect.

P.S. Lick emote is awesome :) Just don't lick people you don't know well enough for them to misunderstand :P) licking bosses is usually safe :P

Tegoelf said...

removed the comment because some unfortunate typos changed the meaning of what I was trying to say.
corrected:

Must remember to link this comment thread with a reference to Nikola as the example of "Enlightened forum troll" And Larisa I hope to see you continue blogging. I greatly enjoy your rants/posts/whatever the masses want to call them.

windpaw said...

I'm a hugger - not a spitter.

Anonymous said...

Yes, really.