tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post7059928904776953322..comments2023-08-12T17:27:01.102+02:00Comments on The Pink Pigtail Inn: Should we feel sorry for Ensidia?Larísahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05769822260333419777noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-64966105781352411022010-02-09T22:03:45.024+01:002010-02-09T22:03:45.024+01:00This is a 25 man raid.. That means any one of thos...This is a 25 man raid.. That means any one of those 25 people could be causing that bug. Now I know they probably did notice the bug, but how the hell would they be able to tell it eas coming from the bombs. If someone had mentioned the bombs I'm certain they would stopped but since they didn't I think Blizz had no right whatsoever.Gexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-68132762754765853222010-02-09T15:36:43.816+01:002010-02-09T15:36:43.816+01:00@ Holly
I agree that perhaps my analogy was off, ...@ Holly<br /><br />I agree that perhaps my analogy was off, due to levels of severity. To clarify my point, for me it boils down to what's right and what's wrong. Playing by the rules = right. Cheating = wrong. Just because an opportunity to cheat is available, doesn't make it right.<br /><br />Doing what's right has rewards and doing what's wrong has<br />consequences. <br /> <br />There are those that would not call it cheating, but they would not be the people who DID do it legitimately. They would feel cheated, and rightly so.Zaphhttp://naganuggets.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-86816017991932218872010-02-08T02:35:08.645+01:002010-02-08T02:35:08.645+01:00@Claud
I really hope my comment didn't come a...@Claud<br /><br />I really hope my comment didn't come across as a big dig at designers, I'd hate to look at the dependancy list in WoW. I'd almost rate it at operating system complexity, yes they're human, yes they make mistakes. But it's still a mistake on -their- part. And while the person who took advantage of it is still liable, the person who caused it should be -more- liable. Taking responsibility for ones mistake is far more important than blaming the person who got off better for it.<br /><br />If a bug caused a plane wreck would they be like 'well the people flying took the chance?' or would the families be prosecuting the crap out of the person who made the mistake? I think I know which would happen in this day and age.<br /><br />The issue isn't 'that blizzard designers are terrible' it's that 'the blizzard designers screwed up, somebody took advantage of it, and they got both sides worth of punishment so they could save face with the final encounter of wrath.'Hollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-65138625935614516322010-02-07T23:53:54.067+01:002010-02-07T23:53:54.067+01:00Just want to remind those morons that call the WoW...Just want to remind those morons that call the WoW programmers all kind of names that they are HUMANS. and the fucking HUMANS make MISTAKES. If from thousand of variables somehow the saronite crap was overlooked then we have a BUG. Planes have crashed because of bugs, this incident is nothing.<br /><br />As for the Ensidia not knowing it's a bug, well, they lie. When you throw a destruction device and something is rebuilding there is a BUG. When you throw an item and an encounter becomes 10x easier there is a BUG. And you really know that after 100000 raids and being no. 1 in the WORLD. So maybe they shouldn't have been banned for the kill, but they are well banned for being damn LIARSAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16479341018179602508noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-84204174505939473832010-02-07T22:16:47.007+01:002010-02-07T22:16:47.007+01:00@Zaph
I think the car thing is almost a bad analo...@Zaph<br /><br />I think the car thing is almost a bad analogy. I know where I live, if you leave your keys in your car, it's not grand theft auto if someone takes it, but joyriding, the difference between a felony and a misdemeanor is the keys being left in the vehicle.<br /><br />I'm not too sure how hard they would have to work to do the bug, how much effort, or how many engineers thety had to take to do it. If they purposely stacked the raid with engineers to exploit it, I think that's a different matter than their one engineer being like 'look, this does this!' and continuing to do it.<br /><br />If it's the former, that's a lot of work to exploit a bug, if it's the latter, if a single engineer can do it, then I would have to say it's bad design and lay fault with the designers.<br /><br />Is it still wrong to take the car with the keys in it? Yes. Is it nearly as bad as breaking a car window, hopping in, ripping the steering column apart, hotwiring it, then taking the car? I have to say...no.<br /><br />Should a punishment have happened in my opinion? Yes Should it have been the rolfstomp they got? I don't believe so. I think stripping the title and kill and loot away was more than fair. A very big slap on the wrist with the 'you should have known better, but we did screw up' Not a 'look what you did?! You took our perfectly good bossfight and found our one bug, and that means you are bad, bad players.'Hollynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-23769863421710986272010-02-07T05:49:36.303+01:002010-02-07T05:49:36.303+01:00I originally felt sorry for them when I thought th...I originally felt sorry for them when I thought they weren't exploiting but now I do so I don't pity them.HPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11762532904788031568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-39130333553427835432010-02-05T21:54:18.012+01:002010-02-05T21:54:18.012+01:00Too many people take this game too seriously.Too many people take this game too seriously.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-20936624786785533822010-02-05T18:50:47.584+01:002010-02-05T18:50:47.584+01:00I do not doubt Ensidia knew what was happening. I&...I do not doubt Ensidia knew what was happening. I'm also fairly convinced they used this mechanic intentional. And since the mechanic was a glitch/bug/expliot they do deserved loot and achievement taken away. What I don't really agree on, is the 72h ban. Without any prior knowledge of the fight, how was it possible to know if it was, in fact, the intention that you had an engineer "rebuild" the platform. And that perhaps was one of the things that made the normal and heroic mode different. Given the way it was done, it was relatively easy to conclude that probably wasn't the case. But we've seen odd fight mechanics before, so it's a possibility non the less. Please do not start to compare it to 10man version. in a 25man version, you can expect an engineer to be present - not so much in the 10man.<br /><br />I do believe they should've had their RaidID reinstated with as many tries left as if they've failed to kill Arthas in their "kill" (i.e. if they killed him with 11 attempts left, they should get an ID with 10 attempts left). This would put everyone on equal stand, and Ensidia just had to bite the bullet with their attempts wasted on the exploit.Gondirnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-29800135223907783602010-02-05T15:48:24.716+01:002010-02-05T15:48:24.716+01:00If someone leaves their car un-locked, then someon...If someone leaves their car un-locked, then someone steals that car, it can be said that the car should have been locked. But that does not excuse the thief who stole the car. Yes, the bug should not have been there in the first place, but Ensidia should have known better than to exploit it. "Gee, we didn't know ... " from an uber guild? Sorry, I don't buy it.Zaphhttp://naganuggets.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-27118364952642105162010-02-05T14:17:15.308+01:002010-02-05T14:17:15.308+01:00I wouldn't say that Lar. As a matter of fact, ...I wouldn't say that Lar. As a matter of fact, i'm dead certain they know about your site - and do not dispise you ;)<br />But that is for another time.Dwismhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332850111235993334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-72689190755692557272010-02-05T13:51:32.039+01:002010-02-05T13:51:32.039+01:00@All: thank you all for your very well thought out...@All: thank you all for your very well thought out comments! This really sparked quite a discussion. It’s not like MMO Champion, sporting 1100 comments, but it’s still too many for me to reply to each comment as I normally do. And besides I’m just as torn in this matter as the community is, so I really find it hard to take a clear position. I tend to agree with the one who spoke last. The issue is far from black and white and I can approve of the arguments coming from both sides. I can understand why Gevlon thinks they should have realized something was wrong, but I can also agree with Tesh, saying that the developers didn’t do their job properly and that it’s wrong to punish Ensidia for this.<br /><br />Either it was just a bug or a clear exploit, I think that there’s a solution that most of the people who care about this sort of stuff would have agreed on. If Blizzard considered this a serious bug, they could have taken away the kill from Ensidia, offering them the possibility to redo the encounter during the same reset, without using the bombs. I don’t think either side would have been particularly upset about such a way to act. Instead they chose to go on with this very harsh punishment, which has far further consequences than a three day absence from the game.<br /><br />Maybe Ensidia are just cheaters, not worthy our admiration or sympathy as some of the commenters think. But I don’t want them to be that. I want to believe. I want to have icons to look up to or to pity, whatever, but to follow from the distance, amazed and tickled.<br /><br />The funny thing is that people like the Ensidia players couldn’t care less about me. I wouldn’t say they despise me, but they hardly would know or care about my existence. I guess I’m just a bit softhearted. A slightly sentimental lady, running an inn where we like to hear stories from far away times and places, stories about heroic deeds and sometimes about the extremes. Even if it’s just an illusion.Larísahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05769822260333419777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-58080258058027054862010-02-05T12:24:43.562+01:002010-02-05T12:24:43.562+01:00I agree with your guildie. As long as you do not h...I agree with your guildie. As long as you do not hack away at Blizzards code or intercept your internet messages anything should go.<br /><br />This is a clear example where Blizzards quality department did not find a bug. <br /><br />A more proper solution in this case would be to fix the bug and take away their achievement.Carrahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11155709707982913637noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-48883241779793767692010-02-05T10:16:34.717+01:002010-02-05T10:16:34.717+01:00I like Ensidia. I wish them well and was happy for...I like Ensidia. I wish them well and was happy for them when they got their world first. But ... I think Gevlon, a few comments above, put it best, no need for me to re-state it.<br /><br />The very, very least they <i>should</i> have done - fine, grab your kill, do your screenshot, but then come out <i>immediately</i> and report weird behaviour straight away, to Blizzard and on your website. Instead they waited until the hotfix was announced to throw their hands in the air and exclaim "oops, we had <i>no idea</i>". It smells.<br /><br />Also, consider the opposite course of action on Blizzard's behalf. The suspension may be debatable (personally I think it's rather exaggerated), but consider the achievements would not have been revoked. What message would that send to the player base? When you find an exploit, use it as long as you can? Would it not have been a spit in the face of guilds like Larisa's, who put an emphasis on doing things the "right" way?<br /><br />For those of you thinking more along the lines of "we (Blizzard) take responsibility" - well, there is no responsibility to take. Arthas (especially in normal mode) going down one day sooner or later really doesn't change much in their grand scheme of things. The only ones hurt or disadvantaged would have been the competing guilds. And "you can't win unless you find the loophole first" is not a nice message to send.<br /><br />Yes, in an ideal world there would be no loopholes, bugs or exploits to begin with. But this is not an ideal world. It's our world, the real one. And people who nerdrage and call game designers, programmers and developers "retards" do not tend to get in my good books. In fact, they tend to get into my "has not the faintest idea of the complexity of software systems, and no respect for the work of others to boot" books. Welcome, both to Muqq and Larisa's unnamed guildie, make yourself at home. Not that you care in which of my books you are, but still.Remhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13618138660846725339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-29243265129915291762010-02-05T05:14:14.295+01:002010-02-05T05:14:14.295+01:00I think they knew if was a break in what is consid...I think they knew if was a break in what is considered normal. They should have known better. However a ban is not right. Take the title and achievement away, but don't stop them from playing on.<br /><br />Let them prove they can do it the right way.TyphoonAndrewhttp://typhoonandrew.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-73726806335639979532010-02-05T04:12:17.557+01:002010-02-05T04:12:17.557+01:00Blizz screwed up, someone else took the fall. Pre...Blizz screwed up, someone else took the fall. Pretty much sums up this whole thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-85791760475251360902010-02-05T02:48:59.279+01:002010-02-05T02:48:59.279+01:00Tell your guildy he or she is a complete idiot who...Tell your guildy he or she is a complete idiot who should think a bit more.<br /><br />The underground miners, teleporters, bots, item duplicators; they're all just taking advantage of "poor design'. An exploit is an exploit whether you intend to find it and keep using it or stumble across it and keep using it.<br /><br />People need to stop blaming others for what is ultimately their own choice, their own action.Klepsacovichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07915576683657376929noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-45378565281263593592010-02-05T02:26:21.955+01:002010-02-05T02:26:21.955+01:00He can't wear some title above his head to sho...He can't wear some title above his head to show off to everyone in Dalaran how leet he is, so he quit the game. Now that is hilarious.<br />Do I care? No.*vlad*noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-69660642767035679122010-02-05T00:45:02.930+01:002010-02-05T00:45:02.930+01:00I'm with your outspoken guildie on general pri...I'm with your outspoken guildie on general principle.<br /><br />These cutting edge players who break your game are your greatest asset as a game designer. Then you can make it better and fix the problem. You just don't punish these guys. You <i>hire</i> them and get them to test your game, with a harsh NDA if you must.<br /><br />If they break it *again* when it goes live, it's the dev's fault for not testing it enough.<br /><br />Here, I'm speaking as a developer who wants to make great games. If the game I make are broken, I want to know how and why, so I can fix them.Teshhttp://tishtoshtesh.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-42320938410998139092010-02-04T23:37:06.673+01:002010-02-04T23:37:06.673+01:00Ok, here's the issue that the glitch causes wi...Ok, here's the issue that the glitch causes with the mechanics of the fight, and why it's not "One of the easier parts of the fight", as Ensidia claimed.<br /><br />There are two major factors in the third phase of the fight that begins with the destruction of the outer rim of the platform. There are large persistant AoE effects called Defile, which eats up about 30% of the reduced platform, and grows larger everytime someone steps in them. He also spawns waves of 3 Valkyr, which grab a player and drag them to edge of the platform and throws them to their death if not DPSed down.<br /><br />By not having to deal with the lack of the outer rim, Defile will only take up about 15% of the avaiable space, making it much easier to deal with. More importantly, the valkyr, instead of throwing their victims off the edge, throw them where that edge should be. That space is now occupied by more of the platform. This means that you can completely ignore the adds as nothing more than a temporary annoyance to three players, and burn the boss.<br /><br />The end result is exactly the same as when Exodus exploited the Immortal Guardians to render Yogg's third phase trivial.The Renaissance Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15218269024132171600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-16198045825656655472010-02-04T22:18:32.423+01:002010-02-04T22:18:32.423+01:00I'd have to see what excatcly the bombs did in...I'd have to see what excatcly the bombs did in the encounter to fully understand if it was a noticible bug, or something that was supposed to happen that just got speed up.<br />(and if it is in anyway possible to tell that it is the bombs that did it)<br /><br />In regards to Muqqs post. He did take the high-road. <br /><br />Please read the last post here: http://www.legacyofsteel.net/oldsite/arc27.html<br />Its Tigoles post on his old mmo complaining about major mistakes in the game he used to play before he left. Almost word for word its a parody of this. <br /><br />It should really hit BLizz where it hurts to be honest. Back in those days they used to rave on about how they where gonna change things from everquest, and have guys from the other side of the fence make games for players ect ect. It was extremely well-played by Muqq. I loved it.Dwismhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02332850111235993334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-57321106604108888892010-02-04T22:01:41.583+01:002010-02-04T22:01:41.583+01:00The issue is not that they used the bombs. The who...The issue is not that they used the bombs. The whole problem is that they threw the bombs clearly at the collapsible part where no one was fighting. Why would you do that if not to exploit?Magmanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-35950379996989889072010-02-04T21:00:38.710+01:002010-02-04T21:00:38.710+01:00It was an exploit and they deserved their ban. The...It was an exploit and they deserved their ban. The bombs REBUILT the platform, not destroyed it.<br /><br />I don't know if they did it intentionally, but they must have seen that something is messed up.<br /><br />The clear thing would be leaving the instance, announcing it on their website that they are not trying until the encounter is fixed.<br /><br />Every program have bugs. If you use a bug, you are exploiting. This was NOT clever use of game mechanics, as bombs were obviously not made to BUILD anything.Gevlonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07072766785893313616noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-10687184727011710802010-02-04T20:52:13.001+01:002010-02-04T20:52:13.001+01:00I said it elsewhere that Ensidia brought this on t...I said it elsewhere that Ensidia brought this on themselves. They set the example previously. They had to know that the encounter was not working as expected, and even if their 15 engineers didn't know what was causing it they could have easily stopped doing the encounter and asked a GM if this was the intended behavior and whether or not they would be banned. It's known that they have contact info for several GMs and devs at Blizzard, and it's known that they were being watched. <br /><br />So they could have been prudent. They chose risk over safety. <br /><br />It does suck that there are this many bugs in the game, and that there are grey areas. But it's a known and reasonably well-communicated policy ahead of time.<br /><br />And honestly? After their crap with C'thun, Hodir, Mimiron, and how they QQed after Exodus's Yogg-0 kill, I don't really mind seeing them get this end of the stick.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-65013003484497799532010-02-04T20:34:15.788+01:002010-02-04T20:34:15.788+01:00The ban was unfortunate, but Ensidia's reactio...The ban was unfortunate, but Ensidia's reaction is the sad thing. Given the opportunity to step up to the challenge, prove their excellence and back their statement that the Lich would die with or without the bombs, they (or rather Muqq) choose to act like a child denied a stolen sweet.<br /><br />Very bad form, imo.Vixsinhttp://www.lifeingroup5.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7084921087677216126.post-43702053511563576332010-02-04T20:30:18.125+01:002010-02-04T20:30:18.125+01:00Let's not forget that not even a year ago, whe...Let's not forget that not even a year ago, when another raiding guild (Exodus) for using an exploit on a World-First Yogg-Saron Acheivement, it was Ensidia that called them out & whined until Exodus got the Acheivement removed & the raid members temporarily banned.<br /><br />So, while one can argue that maybe the circumstances are different, No one should be saying that its just a bad developer, especially members of Ensidia. (On that logic, Exodus would not have been banned & had their Achv removed.)<br /><br />The are simply getting the same punishment they called for last summer. You reap what you sow.Saint Marcosnoreply@blogger.com